DUST Search - Raw mouse input gets you the carrot, ccp.

Rei Shepard wrote:

Ric Barlom wrote:

So guys, I've been following this whole mouse and keyboard debate for quite some time now and I just wanted to give my thoughts on this issue. First let me just put it out there that I play Dust 514 with a DS3, never tried the mouse on this game, probably never will so I don't know how responsive the controls are at the moment. However I did play the original Counter Strike since the beta on PC, man, so I guess you could say I know a thing or two about the the differences between playing with a mouse vs a controller.

Now what worries me with this whole situation is that a lot of you guys in this thread are awesome players, I see you guys regularly dominate games with ease. And that's with suboptimal controls. I'm not saying it's easy to do that with mouse and keyboard though. I'm sure there are a lot of crappy mouse players out there too but, guys, even though I'm not a master with the DS3 by any means, I'm still fairly good with it and I know for a fact that I'd get absolutely slaughtered by a good player with perfect mouse and keyboard controls.

A lot of people say that perfect mouse controls isn't really an unfair thing, because everyone can use it. Sure, guys, it's not unfair and make no mistake about it, I'm gonna be here playing this game no matter what, and I don't give a **** if someone's controlling his character telepathically. That being said, though, I find it more enjoyably to play with a DS3, that's why I play my vide games mainly on my PlayStation and when I'm playing a PlayStation game, guys, I don't expect to be horribly handicapped just because I choose to play with the main input method of the system. Now before you guys get all pissed off at me, man, I know that it's not enjoyable at all to play with broken mouse/keyboard controls either, it probably sucks ass horribly! So at the end of the day, man, I've got no clue what should be done with this issue and I don't pretend to know which way is the better way for the game long term either. It's gonna take someone much smarter. I just hope that guy's working for CCP as we speak.

I appreciate people that don't mind the input people use, ive played fps games with a mouse & keyboard from the original wolfenstein 3D (witch wasnt 3D technically) up to today.

What most people think is KB/M is instant I-Win vs controllers, if you suck at an FPS it really doesn't change much
what input device you use.

Ive played CS competitively and used KB/M for well ever, its no option for me to convert to a controller but besides that good controller users give me a run for my money. Some even take my money, so i dont see where the issue is at.

Seems more like if a bad controller user looses to someone else, he makes up the notion of "he had to be using a KB/M because i rock!"

At the end of the day its the user that makes the control, not the control that makes the user.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Ric Barlom On The Brink CRONOS. 80	Posted - 2013.05.11 11:32:00 - [1] - Quote So guys, I've been following this whole mouse and keyboard debate for quite some time now and I just wanted to give my thoughts on this issue. First let me just put it out there that I play Dust 514 with a DS3, never tried the mouse on this game, probably never will so I don't know how responsive the controls are at the moment. However I did play the original Counter Strike since the beta on PC, man, so I guess you could say I know a thing or two about the the differences between playing with a mouse vs a controller. Now what worries me with this whole situation is that a lot of you guys in this thread are awesome players, I see you guys regularly dominate games with ease. And that's with suboptimal controls. I'm not saying it's easy to do that with mouse and keyboard though. I'm sure there are a lot of crappy mouse players out there too but, guys, even though I'm not a master with the DS3 by any means, I'm still fairly good with it and I know for a fact that I'd get absolutely slaughtered by a good player with perfect mouse and keyboard controls. A lot of people say that perfect mouse controls isn't really an unfair thing, because everyone can use it. Sure, guys, it's not unfair and make no mistake about it, I'm gonna be here playing this game no matter what, and I don't give a **** if someone's controlling his character telepathically. That being said, though, I find it more enjoyably to play with a DS3, that's why I play my vide games mainly on my PlayStation and when I'm playing a PlayStation game, guys, I don't expect to be horribly handicapped just because I choose to play with the main input method of the system. Now before you guys get all pissed off at me, man, I know that it's not enjoyable at all to play with broken mouse/keyboard controls either, it probably sucks ass horribly! So at the end of the day, man, I've got no clue what should be done with this issue and I don't pretend to know which way is the better way for the game long term either. It's gonna take someone much smarter. I just hope that guy's working for CCP as we speak.
Ric Barlom On The Brink CRONOS. 80	Posted - 2013.05.11 11:54:00 - [2] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Ric Barlom wrote: So guys, I've been following this whole mouse and keyboard debate for quite some time now and I just wanted to give my thoughts on this issue. First let me just put it out there that I play Dust 514 with a DS3, never tried the mouse on this game, probably never will so I don't know how responsive the controls are at the moment. However I did play the original Counter Strike since the beta on PC, man, so I guess you could say I know a thing or two about the the differences between playing with a mouse vs a controller. Now what worries me with this whole situation is that a lot of you guys in this thread are awesome players, I see you guys regularly dominate games with ease. And that's with suboptimal controls. I'm not saying it's easy to do that with mouse and keyboard though. I'm sure there are a lot of crappy mouse players out there too but, guys, even though I'm not a master with the DS3 by any means, I'm still fairly good with it and I know for a fact that I'd get absolutely slaughtered by a good player with perfect mouse and keyboard controls. A lot of people say that perfect mouse controls isn't really an unfair thing, because everyone can use it. Sure, guys, it's not unfair and make no mistake about it, I'm gonna be here playing this game no matter what, and I don't give a **** if someone's controlling his character telepathically. That being said, though, I find it more enjoyably to play with a DS3, that's why I play my vide games mainly on my PlayStation and when I'm playing a PlayStation game, guys, I don't expect to be horribly handicapped just because I choose to play with the main input method of the system. Now before you guys get all pissed off at me, man, I know that it's not enjoyable at all to play with broken mouse/keyboard controls either, it probably sucks ass horribly! So at the end of the day, man, I've got no clue what should be done with this issue and I don't pretend to know which way is the better way for the game long term either. It's gonna take someone much smarter. I just hope that guy's working for CCP as we speak. I appreciate people that don't mind the input people use, ive played fps games with a mouse & keyboard from the original wolfenstein 3D (witch wasnt 3D technically) up to today. What most people think is KB/M is instant I-Win vs controllers, if you suck at an FPS it really doesn't change much what input device you use. Ive played CS competitively and used KB/M for well ever, its no option for me to convert to a controller but besides that good controller users give me a run for my money. Some even take my money, so i dont see where the issue is at. Seems more like if a bad controller user looses to someone else, he makes up the notion of "he had to be using a KB/M because i rock!" At the end of the day its the user that makes the control, not the control that makes the user. Agreed 100%. It takes to skill to be good no matter which play you choose to play. At the same time though, I think that a great KB/M guy beats a great controller guy pretty easily if there are no additional modifiers, like auto aim, involved. So, yeah, there needs to be some things involved to make things at least somewhat balanced and I think properly tuned auto aim goes a long way. I don't know if the turn rate is the way to go, maybe it is, maybe it's not, but I just think the main thing here is that all input methods should be enjoyable to play with, while being balanced enough so that one can realistically be involved in the highest level of play with any of the input methods supported.
Ric Barlom On The Brink CRONOS. 80	Posted - 2013.05.11 12:36:00 - [3] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: If you were a competitive gamer, you would go for mouse and keyboard. You already know its the better option, and that it raises the skill mountain and possibilities for good gameplay quite drastically. You are clearly not a competitive gamer as you have opted not to do that. Currently, console shooters are looked at as a joke by PC gamers because the skill mountain is flattened by the use of a controller. You may prefer it for comfort, but competition is not about comfort. It's about pushing yourself to do amazing things. I play this game because it has KB/M as an option, which tells me it is attempting to be an actual legitimate competitive shooter on a console. If it starts going in the opposite direction and nerfing KB/M, then it will simply be looked at as yet another joke of a shooter and us PC guys will keep walking. We have plenty of other options and are under no obligation to play a game that most console players won't touch due to its already declining reputation and a console gamers typically limited attention span towards slow development. Also, you say you don't expect to be horribly handicapped by choosing to use the default method of control... but guess what? That's exactly what happens in every competitive genre. Fighting gamers use 150 dollar arcade sticks to get that extra edge. Racing gamers use wheel setups. Flight sims use flight sticks. Mech-based games use all kinds of crazy expensive ****. All of it is expected and allowed, because it raises the metagame into something glorious. Console shooters are the only crowd that have this over-entitled attitude that they should not have to take responsibility for their controls. It's lazy and deplorable, and you hold the entire genre back. Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean with a competitive gamer but I can tell you that I don't aim to play for money or to make gaming my profession, bro. I do, however aim to be good at whatever I decide to put my time into, and I've done very well in both PC, Xbox and PlayStation games that I've played over the years. I also think saying that there are no competitive players on console is a little bit of an uneducated statement to make to say the least. And oh yeah, PC gamers might think that we, as in competitive console gamers, are a "joke", well why should I care? If I make someone laugh, good for him. I keep doing my thing regardless. Now you talk about racing wheels and arcade fighting sticks and oh yeah, man, I've played a lot of fighting games and some racing games and I've done very well in them too. With a controller I might add. Yeah, all that extra equipment might give one a slight edge but that's all it is: A slight edge. I can go out there and play Street Fighter online with my controller and I know for a fact that I've got a fighting chance against anyone. In fact I can't even tell if they're using a controller or an arcade stick, that's how small the difference is. If they beat me they're probably better players. Mouse vs a controller is a different story though cause the difference is much greater and yeah as I said a good KB/M player would beat a good controller guy in a shooter with no additional factors. That doesn't make it somehow better or more fun though. I mean I'm pretty sure a professional marksman could shoot Anderson Silva (UFC middleweight Champ) pretty easily with a rifle but I'm still much more interested in mixed martial arts than I'm in marksmanship. Lastly, I don't know what's your big problem with console gamers and competitive console gamers specifically. I've had a lot of great matches online both on consoles and on PC, both fun and competitive. I mean what makes you think someone can't be a phenomenal Halo player on Xbox for example? I mean we are playing with controllers and they have their limitations but make no mistake about it: The difference between a pro console gamer compared to beginner console gamer is just as great as a pro PC player compared to a beginner PC player. We just prefer to play our shooters on a controller and that's probably why we're playing a PlayStation game at the moment.
Ric Barlom On The Brink CRONOS. 80	Posted - 2013.05.11 12:43:00 - [4] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Sorry Ric. I gotta completely disagree. M/KB is not better than controller. Some people think it is. They say mouse is more precise. Mouse is more fluid. It isn't. The player determines which is better. The only honest advantage the mouse has is that a player can swipe a mouse across an area at any speed. Controllers are limited by the physical edges of the stick area. Once the mouse is limited in turn rate to be equal to the sticks on the controller there will be nothing the m/kb can do that the controller can't. Some people are better with m/kb. Maybe that's how they started fps games. Maybe their wrist is stronger than their thumb. Whatever the reason - that scheme fits them better. Some people are better with the controller. Maybe they are dexterous with their fingers than arms. Maybe ability to move the whole controller helps them keep a rhythm. Whatever the reason - that setting fits them better. But no matter how you slice it - a control scheme is just that. One is not better than the other. One is not handicapped vs the other. It's time people stop blaming their tools....(when they work that is!) I agree with you to a certain point and I'm not blaming anyone's tools. For me it's good enough for everyone to have controls that they enjoy using while giving everyone a realistic chance to be part of a good corp, be an asset to them and enjoy the game no matter which input method they decide to use. I think properly tuned auto aim is a must, we have it at the moment even though it works a little weird sometimes, now that combined with the turn rate thing you mentioned and you're right, it might be balanced out enough.